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	<title>Comments on: How to Play With Marsh Flats</title>
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	<link>http://fivewithflores.com/2009/10/how-to-play-with-marsh-flats/</link>
	<description>Where you learn to love what Mike Flores loves</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 15:57:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: MTGBattlefield</title>
		<link>http://fivewithflores.com/2009/10/how-to-play-with-marsh-flats/#comment-1385</link>
		<dc:creator>MTGBattlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Nov 2009 02:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fivewithflores.com/?p=861#comment-1385</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;How to Play With Marsh Flats...&lt;/strong&gt;

Your story has been summoned to the battlefield - Trackback from MTGBattlefield...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>How to Play With Marsh Flats&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Your story has been summoned to the battlefield - Trackback from MTGBattlefield&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: ProdigalT</title>
		<link>http://fivewithflores.com/2009/10/how-to-play-with-marsh-flats/#comment-1382</link>
		<dc:creator>ProdigalT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 21:45:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fivewithflores.com/?p=861#comment-1382</guid>
		<description>This deck would be great if it didn't cost infinity dollars. The break-in price for new players, or even veterans like myself, is becoming increasingly high and Wizards ought to do something about that. With the rapid release of new sets, there's less time for cards to saturate the market. Since the release of Zendikar, nobody is opening Baneslayer Angel in draft anymore, so the price is essentially fixed at $40ish, and I don't see that price changing much, whether or not she gets reprinted in the next core set. Starcity is currently selling it at $50, and they have only one in stock.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This deck would be great if it didn&#8217;t cost infinity dollars. The break-in price for new players, or even veterans like myself, is becoming increasingly high and Wizards ought to do something about that. With the rapid release of new sets, there&#8217;s less time for cards to saturate the market. Since the release of Zendikar, nobody is opening Baneslayer Angel in draft anymore, so the price is essentially fixed at $40ish, and I don&#8217;t see that price changing much, whether or not she gets reprinted in the next core set. Starcity is currently selling it at $50, and they have only one in stock.</p>
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		<title>By: GRat</title>
		<link>http://fivewithflores.com/2009/10/how-to-play-with-marsh-flats/#comment-1381</link>
		<dc:creator>GRat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 17:37:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fivewithflores.com/?p=861#comment-1381</guid>
		<description>&#60;3 this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&lt;3 this.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Alfrebaut</title>
		<link>http://fivewithflores.com/2009/10/how-to-play-with-marsh-flats/#comment-1380</link>
		<dc:creator>Alfrebaut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 17:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fivewithflores.com/?p=861#comment-1380</guid>
		<description>Well, I was just thinking about what Feldman wrote about it being really awesome against threats you don't really want to bin like Thrinax and Bloodghast, with the added bonus of it being really awesome against the rest of Jund and Vampires, minus Bloodwitch. I suppose that might have more to do with Feldman's lack of fatties, meaning that he cares more about random 1/1s and a recursive 2/1 than your deck with boom booms Galore to hold it down. 

Also, I don't know about Disfigure as an anti-Red. Sure, it's a 1-mana removal spell, but I feel like it's a little unreliable. RW "Boros Bushwacker" is probably the model for Red aggro in the format, and their threats include Steppe Lynx, Plated Geopede (both of whom are hard to kill with Disfigure because of all their fetches) and Kor Skyfisher. Obviously, Purge misses a lot of their threats as well, but I don't really think that's where it's supposed to shine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I was just thinking about what Feldman wrote about it being really awesome against threats you don&#8217;t really want to bin like Thrinax and Bloodghast, with the added bonus of it being really awesome against the rest of Jund and Vampires, minus Bloodwitch. I suppose that might have more to do with Feldman&#8217;s lack of fatties, meaning that he cares more about random 1/1s and a recursive 2/1 than your deck with boom booms Galore to hold it down. </p>
<p>Also, I don&#8217;t know about Disfigure as an anti-Red. Sure, it&#8217;s a 1-mana removal spell, but I feel like it&#8217;s a little unreliable. RW &#8220;Boros Bushwacker&#8221; is probably the model for Red aggro in the format, and their threats include Steppe Lynx, Plated Geopede (both of whom are hard to kill with Disfigure because of all their fetches) and Kor Skyfisher. Obviously, Purge misses a lot of their threats as well, but I don&#8217;t really think that&#8217;s where it&#8217;s supposed to shine.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://fivewithflores.com/2009/10/how-to-play-with-marsh-flats/#comment-1378</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 13:58:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fivewithflores.com/?p=861#comment-1378</guid>
		<description>@Alfrebaut
RE: Celestial Purge... If you think about it Celestial Purge is a relatively low power card. It's just worse than Maelstrom Pulse against Malakir Bloodwitch (i.e. a lot worse especially at that curve point) and it is just inflexible in a different way than, say, Doom Blade. I guess it could be good as an anti-Red beatdown measure. I would sooner play Disfigure (and have been thinking about that).

@wobblesthegoose
I like a lot of your strategic comments and agree with them (first Forest important, subsequent Forests relatively unimportant) and the flash point comments; however I think that you are a bit off in your card valuations. Ob Nixilis just kills the opponent on the spot about 1/3 of the time. Lord of Extinction gets blocked by Elspeth tokens. I really agree about the mana constraints that Thornling puts on this deck (I hate losing it in combat) but it is massively more powerful than almost anything else you can play there.

I don't see how you can be happy with one Sorin. He is one of the best cards in the deck and I side up to four in so many matchups (Vampires, anything Red, any control deck)... He's just unreal. I think Sorin is the main reason you beat Vampires with Junk Mana Ramp. Also have you never just put them to 10 and then killed them on the spot with Ob Nixilis? I just don't understand why you think Lord of Extinction is comparable... Don't get me wrong I love Lord of Extinction and could see testing him in the Thornling spot purely due to the Green mana issue, but Lord of Extinction will not generally be 9/9 to 12/12 on his first attack, where Ob Nixilis often--even usually--is that big. 

@Tekanan
I hate using Grim Discovery as a Raise Dead or Lay of the Land but you do what you've got to do to facilitate Baneslayer Angel... Also wobblesthegoose’s deck can't get broken Ob Nixilis draws so he isn't seeing the same value from Grim Discovery (one Grim Discovery is like a cantrip Ball Lightning, maybe even cantrip double Ball Lightning or double cantrip Ball Lightning depending on the opponent's play). It's a good play to recycle Lotus Cobra on turn three as well (or just tax the opponent's removal with Knight of the Reliquary, which is also unreal in this deck).

Thanks for the comments guys--keep the discussion going.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Alfrebaut<br />
RE: Celestial Purge&#8230; If you think about it Celestial Purge is a relatively low power card. It&#8217;s just worse than Maelstrom Pulse against Malakir Bloodwitch (i.e. a lot worse especially at that curve point) and it is just inflexible in a different way than, say, Doom Blade. I guess it could be good as an anti-Red beatdown measure. I would sooner play Disfigure (and have been thinking about that).</p>
<p>@wobblesthegoose<br />
I like a lot of your strategic comments and agree with them (first Forest important, subsequent Forests relatively unimportant) and the flash point comments; however I think that you are a bit off in your card valuations. Ob Nixilis just kills the opponent on the spot about 1/3 of the time. Lord of Extinction gets blocked by Elspeth tokens. I really agree about the mana constraints that Thornling puts on this deck (I hate losing it in combat) but it is massively more powerful than almost anything else you can play there.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see how you can be happy with one Sorin. He is one of the best cards in the deck and I side up to four in so many matchups (Vampires, anything Red, any control deck)&#8230; He&#8217;s just unreal. I think Sorin is the main reason you beat Vampires with Junk Mana Ramp. Also have you never just put them to 10 and then killed them on the spot with Ob Nixilis? I just don&#8217;t understand why you think Lord of Extinction is comparable&#8230; Don&#8217;t get me wrong I love Lord of Extinction and could see testing him in the Thornling spot purely due to the Green mana issue, but Lord of Extinction will not generally be 9/9 to 12/12 on his first attack, where Ob Nixilis often&#8211;even usually&#8211;is that big. </p>
<p>@Tekanan<br />
I hate using Grim Discovery as a Raise Dead or Lay of the Land but you do what you&#8217;ve got to do to facilitate Baneslayer Angel&#8230; Also wobblesthegoose’s deck can&#8217;t get broken Ob Nixilis draws so he isn&#8217;t seeing the same value from Grim Discovery (one Grim Discovery is like a cantrip Ball Lightning, maybe even cantrip double Ball Lightning or double cantrip Ball Lightning depending on the opponent&#8217;s play). It&#8217;s a good play to recycle Lotus Cobra on turn three as well (or just tax the opponent&#8217;s removal with Knight of the Reliquary, which is also unreal in this deck).</p>
<p>Thanks for the comments guys&#8211;keep the discussion going.</p>
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		<title>By: Tekanan</title>
		<link>http://fivewithflores.com/2009/10/how-to-play-with-marsh-flats/#comment-1377</link>
		<dc:creator>Tekanan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 10:52:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fivewithflores.com/?p=861#comment-1377</guid>
		<description>I like wobblesthegoose's version but are these numbers right?

1 Behemoth Sledge
1 Sorin Markov
1 Grim Discovery
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

They seem very miser-ish. IMO Grim Discovery and Sorin begs to be at least a 2-off. Maybe tweak the LoE numbers? He isn't as potent as Orb Nixilis during the first few turns (when having fetchlands in hand), so I see him more as a late-game insurance.


I would also like to see Malakir Bloodwitches in the sideboard if you are playing against a heavy white deck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like wobblesthegoose&#8217;s version but are these numbers right?</p>
<p>1 Behemoth Sledge<br />
1 Sorin Markov<br />
1 Grim Discovery<br />
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant</p>
<p>They seem very miser-ish. IMO Grim Discovery and Sorin begs to be at least a 2-off. Maybe tweak the LoE numbers? He isn&#8217;t as potent as Orb Nixilis during the first few turns (when having fetchlands in hand), so I see him more as a late-game insurance.</p>
<p>I would also like to see Malakir Bloodwitches in the sideboard if you are playing against a heavy white deck.</p>
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		<title>By: wobblesthegoose</title>
		<link>http://fivewithflores.com/2009/10/how-to-play-with-marsh-flats/#comment-1376</link>
		<dc:creator>wobblesthegoose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 08:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fivewithflores.com/?p=861#comment-1376</guid>
		<description>I've been playing quite a bit with this list and variations on this list since you posted it, because this deck is awesome. A few comments/questions based on my experience:

Using the knight to get you from 4 mana to five mana is often key. The fact that you can tap 4 lands, activate knight, and drop a five is insane, especially because you typically get to untap with 10+ power on the table. Knighting up sac lands has totally pushed this card over the edge.

Two, understanding what lands to fetch is equally important. I mean, this deck rarely needs more than 1 green source after turn 3, but desperately needs that first forest to cast anything at all. Then it needs two white sources by the time it gets to five mana, so it can hardcast baneslayer, but it would like to have double black as well, just so that it can cast mind shatter. Basically, what I wind up trying to do is go: 1st Green, 1st White, 1st black, 2nd White, 2nd black, 3rd black. It's an important pattern, because the snake allows you to play anything but it never survives long. Also, this makes the 1x thornling random and really hard to use effectively. I mean, like everything in the deck it's great with the snake powering out green, but without it Thornling is almost always requiring you to leave a Green up, which makes it cost at least 3GGG, or 3GGGG with haste or trample. Either way, that's awkward with 3WW, 3BBB cards in your hand, too.

Third, Mind Shatter is great. Even just for 3, it puts you way ahead. Against everything but the most agressive burn decks you really want 3 in the main. And even against boros it's pretty good in the main, because having them lose lands takes a lot of damage off the board. 

Forth, Grim Discovery. This card is so good when you get blightninged. It's also great when they kill your cobra and you've got time to get it back. That said, if they aren't running discard (or don't see it) and you don't have a cobra opening it's mostly a fair to middling lay of the land. I mean, this build is really focused on cobra. I've had a really hard time closing with ob when it isn't backed up by a sac land immediately after playing it or on the board. And that's not an easy situation to get to.

This is what my build has become over the course of easily four or five dozen games:

5 Forest
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
3 Swamp
2 Sunpetal Grove
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Baneslayer Angel
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Lord of Extinction
4 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Path to Exile
3 Mind Shatter
1 Behemoth Sledge
1 Sorin Markov
1 Grim Discovery
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Sideboard
1 Sorin Markov
2 Grim Discovery
4 Disfigure
3 Duress
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Captured Sunlight

The biggest change is Lord of Extinction for Ob. Lord doesn't need any other cards to become easily the biggest threat on the board, ends the game if you untap with it while usually being able to both block and survive burn, and isn't legendary. It's also ridiculous after a mind shatter. The Terramorphic Expanses are for the Lord, but also to makes sure that your opponent can't just lightning bolt your knight on turn three. Having the knight survive is really important to dropping your fives at least a turn early.  With a turn one hierarch into a turn two knight that can easily be a turn 3 five drop, without a cobra. Hierarch makes 12 accelerators, all of which are able to attack for damage (Often while also making mana!). In a world of lots of planeswalkers, early beaters are that much more important. The sideboards have some important differences too. Mostly, focusing on a discard package instead of the traps vs control and cheaper removal against ridiculously fast red decks. I'd love to hear what other people playing with this deck have found, because I've spent quite a bit of time with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been playing quite a bit with this list and variations on this list since you posted it, because this deck is awesome. A few comments/questions based on my experience:</p>
<p>Using the knight to get you from 4 mana to five mana is often key. The fact that you can tap 4 lands, activate knight, and drop a five is insane, especially because you typically get to untap with 10+ power on the table. Knighting up sac lands has totally pushed this card over the edge.</p>
<p>Two, understanding what lands to fetch is equally important. I mean, this deck rarely needs more than 1 green source after turn 3, but desperately needs that first forest to cast anything at all. Then it needs two white sources by the time it gets to five mana, so it can hardcast baneslayer, but it would like to have double black as well, just so that it can cast mind shatter. Basically, what I wind up trying to do is go: 1st Green, 1st White, 1st black, 2nd White, 2nd black, 3rd black. It&#8217;s an important pattern, because the snake allows you to play anything but it never survives long. Also, this makes the 1x thornling random and really hard to use effectively. I mean, like everything in the deck it&#8217;s great with the snake powering out green, but without it Thornling is almost always requiring you to leave a Green up, which makes it cost at least 3GGG, or 3GGGG with haste or trample. Either way, that&#8217;s awkward with 3WW, 3BBB cards in your hand, too.</p>
<p>Third, Mind Shatter is great. Even just for 3, it puts you way ahead. Against everything but the most agressive burn decks you really want 3 in the main. And even against boros it&#8217;s pretty good in the main, because having them lose lands takes a lot of damage off the board. </p>
<p>Forth, Grim Discovery. This card is so good when you get blightninged. It&#8217;s also great when they kill your cobra and you&#8217;ve got time to get it back. That said, if they aren&#8217;t running discard (or don&#8217;t see it) and you don&#8217;t have a cobra opening it&#8217;s mostly a fair to middling lay of the land. I mean, this build is really focused on cobra. I&#8217;ve had a really hard time closing with ob when it isn&#8217;t backed up by a sac land immediately after playing it or on the board. And that&#8217;s not an easy situation to get to.</p>
<p>This is what my build has become over the course of easily four or five dozen games:</p>
<p>5 Forest<br />
4 Marsh Flats<br />
3 Plains<br />
3 Swamp<br />
2 Sunpetal Grove<br />
4 Verdant Catacombs<br />
4 Terramorphic Expanse<br />
4 Knight of the Reliquary<br />
4 Lotus Cobra<br />
4 Baneslayer Angel<br />
4 Noble Hierarch<br />
4 Lord of Extinction<br />
4 Maelstrom Pulse<br />
4 Path to Exile<br />
3 Mind Shatter<br />
1 Behemoth Sledge<br />
1 Sorin Markov<br />
1 Grim Discovery<br />
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant</p>
<p>Sideboard<br />
1 Sorin Markov<br />
2 Grim Discovery<br />
4 Disfigure<br />
3 Duress<br />
3 Tidehollow Sculler<br />
2 Captured Sunlight</p>
<p>The biggest change is Lord of Extinction for Ob. Lord doesn&#8217;t need any other cards to become easily the biggest threat on the board, ends the game if you untap with it while usually being able to both block and survive burn, and isn&#8217;t legendary. It&#8217;s also ridiculous after a mind shatter. The Terramorphic Expanses are for the Lord, but also to makes sure that your opponent can&#8217;t just lightning bolt your knight on turn three. Having the knight survive is really important to dropping your fives at least a turn early.  With a turn one hierarch into a turn two knight that can easily be a turn 3 five drop, without a cobra. Hierarch makes 12 accelerators, all of which are able to attack for damage (Often while also making mana!). In a world of lots of planeswalkers, early beaters are that much more important. The sideboards have some important differences too. Mostly, focusing on a discard package instead of the traps vs control and cheaper removal against ridiculously fast red decks. I&#8217;d love to hear what other people playing with this deck have found, because I&#8217;ve spent quite a bit of time with it.</p>
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		<title>By: Alfrebaut</title>
		<link>http://fivewithflores.com/2009/10/how-to-play-with-marsh-flats/#comment-1375</link>
		<dc:creator>Alfrebaut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 08:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fivewithflores.com/?p=861#comment-1375</guid>
		<description>Well, I for one could never afford to play that deck. 8 Fetches, 4 M10 duals, full sets of Ob Nixilis, Baneslayer, Cobras, Knights, Pulses, Sorins, and 2 misers' Elspeths? That must just cost like, a million-billion dollars. I also noticed you're not sporting any Celestial Purges. Are the matchups against Vampires and Jund easy enough for you that 4 extra random removal spells wouldn't make much of a difference?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I for one could never afford to play that deck. 8 Fetches, 4 M10 duals, full sets of Ob Nixilis, Baneslayer, Cobras, Knights, Pulses, Sorins, and 2 misers&#8217; Elspeths? That must just cost like, a million-billion dollars. I also noticed you&#8217;re not sporting any Celestial Purges. Are the matchups against Vampires and Jund easy enough for you that 4 extra random removal spells wouldn&#8217;t make much of a difference?</p>
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		<title>By: Joey Pasco</title>
		<link>http://fivewithflores.com/2009/10/how-to-play-with-marsh-flats/#comment-1374</link>
		<dc:creator>Joey Pasco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 07:31:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fivewithflores.com/?p=861#comment-1374</guid>
		<description>I mentioned this on Twitter (I'm @fotolorea) but thought it was worth posting here as well. Gargoyle Castle seems like it would fit nicely in the deck as a one-of, with Knight of the Reliquary able to search it up, and Grim Discovery allowing you to reuse it after you crack it for a gargoyle. I've been itching to exploit this synergy since I saw Grim Disco. With Knight on board to fetch it, GC can feel a bit like Plumeveil—a surprise flying blocker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I mentioned this on Twitter (I&#8217;m @fotolorea) but thought it was worth posting here as well. Gargoyle Castle seems like it would fit nicely in the deck as a one-of, with Knight of the Reliquary able to search it up, and Grim Discovery allowing you to reuse it after you crack it for a gargoyle. I&#8217;ve been itching to exploit this synergy since I saw Grim Disco. With Knight on board to fetch it, GC can feel a bit like Plumeveil—a surprise flying blocker.</p>
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