Comments on: Mis-assignment of Strategy = Options Amputation

By: Monday Night Magic #155 - Llamas, Planechase and Regionals! | MTGCast - Magic the Gathering Podcast Network

Mon, 18 May 2009 21:46:00 +0000

[...] a bunch of articles discussing more about the pros / cons of mid-range decks from Adrian Sullivan, Mike Flores and LSV. SpikeBoyM has another great Pauper article reviewing the latest Premier [...]

By: Five With Flores » You Make the Play - Keep or No?

Five With Flores » You Make the Play - Keep or No? — Fri, 15 May 2009 03:32:05 +0000

[...] Did you cats see that the great Luis Scott-Vargas (LSV) and long-lost RidiculousHat posted on Mis-assignment of Strategy = Options Amputation? Might want to check out the forums from the previous [...]

By: double_g

double_g — Thu, 14 May 2009 14:22:39 +0000

My version of YOUR jund ramp seems great. I replaced the Civic Wayfinders with Farhaven Elves (since I probably want that land in play, not in my hand), and cut the whole gift of the gargantuan stuff, since it just didnt do anything for me (if it were a 99% 2 for 1, it would be good; but that’s not the case), and replaced them with 2 x Loxodon Warhammer (it seems good against anything but 5cc as of now) and 2 x Primal Command. I’ve also cut 1 Thresher and 1 Banefire for 2 Chameleon Colossus, since I probably dont wanna see them in my opening hand in multiples, and at least CC costs 4 mana (really important, because I mulliganed too many times drawing unplayable 7s) , and in many matchups it is just so hard to handle.
I also changed your sb a bit, playing 3 x Maelstrom Pulse, because you really need to destroy Runed Halo against 5cc because it completely shuts your deck/wincons (mainly Banefire and Anathemancer) down and it also destroys everything that you normally couldn’t destroy and gives you trouble (like Elspeth and Dauntless Escort, and also Forge-Tender and tokens).I also play Thought Hemmorhage in the sb as a 2of, but I’m still testing it whether it is needed or not (it gives you an edge against Cruel Ultimatum and Reveillark, both being hard to deal with).

Great job you did there with the deck, I hope you find my suggestions useful.

By: RidiculousHat

RidiculousHat — Thu, 14 May 2009 07:53:10 +0000

mike, i love this deck. it’s just big thing after big thing. boom boom boom.

the biggest problem i’ve run into so far is a runed halo on banefire– once that hits, i feel like my lategame evaporates, especially if it’s from a lark deck.

By: lsv

lsv — Wed, 13 May 2009 19:06:29 +0000

I liked the article, and don’t actually disagree with most of it. While it does seem pretty hard to argue that Primal Command is better than Cryptic Command, the Standard format being what it is makes decks like this much more viable than they used to be. Most of the midrange decks I used existed during formats that had much better blue control decks (Rune Snag and Remand during type 2, Counterspell, Circular Logic, Fact or Fiction during extended), but this particular Standard format really doesn’t have too many great blue control decks. The recent metagame shift has drastically cut down on the amount of Faeries and 5cc, because the blue-based control decks are having trouble competing with the very resilient token decks.

Maybe it sounds like a cop-out, but if blue-based control is largely reduced in the metagame, a deck like this Jund Ramp deck might be shifting more towards being the control deck of the format. If you don’t have to worry much about counterspells, than a deck like this will actual do well. Most of the Jund lists I have seen aren’t good, but this certainly could be (granted I haven’t tested it), especially because you have an actual Plan, which the midrange lists I was railing against didn’t have.

Luis

By: vpreacher

vpreacher — Wed, 13 May 2009 17:09:45 +0000

How important is Rampant Growth to the deck? All of the important early spells seem to happen on turn 3. And topdecking one late is a punch in the nuts. In testing we I tried out your version minus the Growths, upping the land count to 24, playing the 4th shreikmaw and fallout and running maelstrom pulse as a one of, although it could be the 4th mannequin or 25th land. It seems to play out the same.

By: Heaps

Heaps — Wed, 13 May 2009 16:48:51 +0000

THANK YOU for a cohesive defense of Mana Ramp, which I’ve been playing since states. However, can you clarify on your hatred of Garruk and Primal Command main? I currently use Garruk and I feel like dropping him turn 3 is one of the strongest plays in the format, while I HOPE to draw Primal against reflecting pool control…bounce your tap land, get a monster? Please clarify.

By: messels

messels — Wed, 13 May 2009 16:24:47 +0000

did some fairly extensive testing against B/W tokens using your list yesterday. we were split 50-50. not bad. we still liked the jund agro build better than yours but that could just be familiarity speaking. results came in around 60-40 in favor of jund agro against B/W tokens. despite those results, i actually think that B/W tokens may still be the best deck. unfortunately haven’t been able to test much w/ fae and 5cc. (5cc during last week’s testing was getting its ass beat down by jund agro). gl.

By: Amarsir

Amarsir — Wed, 13 May 2009 15:10:05 +0000

Have you tested against Sanity Grinding? I’m not convinced Primal turns it quite the way you hope. Either they have One Big Turn or they’re in a positon to counter it. I think a good strategy is to make them fear early smaller hits + lethal Banefire, thus forcing the attempt sooner. Not that it will be highly played anyway, but I do think they still have the edge even with Primal coming in.

And red is the other deck I had some concern over, but I do think Primal makes the differene there. Interestingly, it seems some are turning back to slower models with Demigod, which I feel is better for Jund Ramp.

Thanks btw for addressing Garruk versions. I always wanted to hear why you didn’t go that way (since those who stuck with Ramp over the winter pretty universally did).

By: Dochetwas

Dochetwas — Wed, 13 May 2009 15:03:26 +0000

Heh. That was an amusing article to read, if only because LSV was arguing his point SO badly. Midrange doesn’t do anything, is unfocused, & can never win consistently? Well, if you define a deck like that, I guess it would be pretty bad.

I don’t know that GW Tokens is as easy a matchup as you think for the Mana Ramp deck, at least anymore. Overrun tends to quicken the clock a fair bit, as well as let 2/X dudes slap up Broodmate Dragon. Double Dragon is pretty awesome, but it isn’t at it’s best vs. lots of (suddenly) large guys. (Although I haven’t tested vs. Jund ramp, so this is all just rambling.)